µATX Overview: Prelude to a Roundup

by Gary Key on 8/7/2007 4:00 AM EST
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  • Mazen - Monday, August 27, 2007 - link

    If memory serves me well, we were supposed to see something last week!
  • Mikus42 - Thursday, August 16, 2007 - link

    You have great timing! I am researching components for a Micro ATX box.

    I have an older Shuttle SFF I am going to replace. (It is topped out on CPU speed.)

    For me, noise is a very important factor. My shuttle is on my desktop and it can be a tad noisy.
  • jonp - Thursday, August 9, 2007 - link

    The SG03 case is $160 (Newegg) w/o a power supply....ouch.
    The SX6 w/600w case is $112 (eCost).

    I would like to nominate the Foxconn TLM776-CN300C-02 w/300w at $40 (Newegg) as a more typical mini-tower case option.
    2 5.25" external -- one more than SG03; same as SX6.
    2 3.5" external -- one more than both SG03 and SX6.
    4 3.5" internal -- two more than both SG03 and SX6.
    expansion slots, front ports same for all three.
    power & reset buttons (SX6 yes; not sure if SG03 has reset button).
    1 80mm exhaust fan (SG03: 120mm intake, no exhaust; SX6 80mm intake, 120mm exhaust)
    Steel (SG03 Al; SX6 steel(?))

    The TLM776 power supply is a Channel Well unit. If that doesn't suit then it can be replaced with say a Seasonic S12 II 330watt at $60 for $100 total.
  • RamIt - Wednesday, August 8, 2007 - link

    I am so dissapointed by the numerous delays with this article, i will just pass it up when it finally materalizes. Way too many broken promises Gary.
    Peace out.
  • SanLouBlues - Wednesday, August 8, 2007 - link

    Since you're dipping your toes in, I'm dying to see some reviews of the PCHDTV cards for linux that claim ATSC/NTSC and unencrypted QAM support.
  • carver5678 - Wednesday, August 8, 2007 - link

    here are some suggestions for the review:

    (1) measure northbridge temps. *lots* of people are having problems with hot NBs. for example, see customer reviews on newegg product pages.

    (2) evaluate the ability of the boards to support passive cooling. can the scythe ninja fit on the motherboard? does the board rely on airflow from a cpu cooler to cool its northbridge? can it fit a scythe ninja, thermaright hr-05 NB heatsink, and thermaright hr-03 VGA heatsink, all at the same time, or do they conflict with each other?
  • lopri - Wednesday, August 8, 2007 - link

    I am 200% for the AT's (newer) stance on motherboard evaluations. Contrary to common myth, enthusiast market is HUGE. In various forums I often hear arguments like "Vendors make most money from OEM contracts", "They don't care about enthusiasts. They make money off server market", etc. - this can't be wrong enough. As computers are becoming a commodity, the number of enthusiasts is getting bigger, and vendors are very well aware of this fact. These days we observe even the most conservative and OEM-oriented companies attempt to jump in this growing market and have a piece.

    And there come the inevitable side-effects: Rushed-out (i.e. bug-fest) products, irrelevant blings, non-functional features, unacceptable compatibility, and poor longevity, etc.

    The #1 components in PC, of the said side-effects, are by far motherboards. I have been really put off by today's motherboards and for me it totally ruined the image of "Intel Stability". In all honesty, if I were to be responsible for an on-going support of an Intel based system, there would be only select a few 975X boards to choose from – of course in order to avoid potential hassles . It has been that bad, IMHO, and the ways vendors handle their mishaps are infuriating sometimes. Anyone who had to deal with the so-called "tech support" of famed motherboard manufacturers would know. Even under the best case of scenario, users have to deal with 2~3 weeks of downtime for replacement. (maybe except EVGA) For me, it's a total nonsense.

    If you buy a TV, you most likely expect it to work as advertised. Same for a DVD player, refrigerator, or anything that you spend your hard-earned cash on. Not so for a motherboard. It's been such a mystery for me (who happen to be dealing with many professionals and their works/products) how these Taiwanese mobo manufacturers can get away with the poor quality of products they dump in the market, and their shady business practices. When I purchase a product, I should be able to expect a 100% defect-free product, instead of praying on luck. I also don't want to see a almost same product as I bought, being sold with a slightly different name and fixed functions, not too long after my purchase.

    To a certain extent, I blame online journalist for their negligence. I do understand many are working with the manufacturers directly to get things right for us and that alone could be a reason why they often are sympathetic with the manufacturers. However, it is important to note that ultimately, reviewers should be in the buyer's shoes, and articles from reputable reviewers can have a huge effect on buyers' decisions. No matter how much work a mobo manufacturer put in, and no matter how much they listened to the reviewers, if the final products that end-users get are not up to the standard (read: 100% free from , reviewers should clearly state the shortcomings of the products at hand.

    Above said, I felt so refreshed reading from the first page of this article and would like to commend AT's courage. It's not that AT has been partial or unfair until today - it's the opposite. AT's motherboard reviews are probably the only motherboard reviews (and TechReport's) I've trusted to date and often times I don't even bother to read any other site's reviews. (they are waste of my time) I couldn't be happier with every single sentence that Gary wrote in a clear English. It read almost like a 'motherboard review manifesto 2007' :D and I couldn't agree more with every single word he stated.
  • SunLord - Wednesday, August 8, 2007 - link

    I sure as hell hope you have no plans to recommend the Mx5000 desktop to anyone. It's an unstable pile of crap. The keyboard at random times goes nuts and keys "stick" as you type. They don't stick down but they just keep repeating in windows cause the keyboard has dropped it's signal it's a bluetooth/site point problem. Oh andf can't forget the battery life gotta remember to always turn it off or you'll be replacing batteries every other week. The mouse is nice though.

    I'm buying a G15 and a rf wireless mouse to replace my month old Mx5000 because it's not worth the hassle of having to pull out and replug in the bt adapter every time the keyboard takes a dump
  • strikeback03 - Wednesday, August 8, 2007 - link

    We have a MX5000 set at work and I have one at home. On the work set it has never dropped the connection, and we have replaced the batteries twice in 15 months (and it sees use for a couple hours a day). The only major problem is that the Logitech software can't handle switching between Linux and Windows, which is why on my home computer I didn't install the Logitech software. I use my home keyboard more, and still get 3 months or so out of decent rechargable batteries.
  • SunLord - Wednesday, August 8, 2007 - link

    I exchanged one set after a week and this one is still flacky i just moved to linux 3days ago and while bluetooth is useless it works perfectly. So I'd have to say it's all logitechs fault with there typical craptastic drivers

    On batteries no clue I burned through 8batteries in a month i bought the same day i got the keyboard at BB... Nice new duracells
  • larson0699 - Wednesday, August 8, 2007 - link

    quote:

    Whether we like it or not, Vista is the future for Windows based machines so our configuration reflects this trend.

    If speaking on OEM machines, then by all means, touché. I would imagine that most of the AT/DT audience are builders, however, which gives us the choice NOT to install an OS that feels like Norton all over again.. Gamers especially feel this.
    Anywho, for a lot of us Vista is NOT the future, and until more is known of '7', we may well stay with 2K/XP for a loooooong time.
    At least you use Linux in your tests as well, but again.. SUSE??
  • Myrandex - Friday, August 10, 2007 - link

    No reason for the hate towards SuSE. That is my fav. distro by far!
  • TA152H - Tuesday, August 7, 2007 - link

    I'm not sure how Micro-ATX is automatically low cost. Considering how well SFF computers sell, and how poorly full sized computers do by comparison, I think the main reason (OK, you're about to think "duh") is the size! But, yet, you've made it low cost and low power. Size matters!

    But, really, I think it's interesting you're going with quiet and low power, but I also think you could make a point for higher cost machines as well. Really, the smaller motherboard should be faster, not slower, since the memory is closer to the controller. Granted, you can't use as many expansion cards, but who uses two video cards anyway? The motherboards come with so many features, there really is not that you can not put in a Micro-ATX. A better video card, a better sound card. Could be high end depending upon the choices, and the choice of processors and memory, right? So, I think you'll have some performance freaks getting this factor too, it's so nice to have a small computer instead of some desk hog. And under desk sucks because you can't see the lights, which still give useful information. And, of course, it's easier to put in CDs and DVDs if it's on your desk, instead of under.

    Also, much more interesting to me, although probably not to the readers here, are mini-ITX based machines, particularly the ultra low power ones from Centaur/VIA. These things are great in the summer, and now have some really interesting parts (mine is a year old, and kind of slow). How about 1.2 GHz at 3.5 watts max power? It's a slow 1.2 GHz, but still, it's a great surfing/email, etc... machine. Admittedly, it's not the main focus of this site, but it's still a very, very, very useful machine, and much better than the mainstream Intel/AMD solutions for a large subset of people. Except in the winter in the cold regions, I guess. It might be interesting for you guys to review too. From personal experience, using this machine instead of my older surfer (and underclocked Celeron 1100/100 running at 733/66 and AIW 9000) keeps my bedroom so much cooler in the summer, it's terrific. It's a bit slow though at 800 MHz, but the new ones use considerably less power, and are 50% faster! I bet a lot of people would be interested in this type of article.
  • hardwareguy - Tuesday, August 7, 2007 - link

    What's with the expensive/unknown speaker choice? It seems there are very few places in the USA that sell these speakers and they are pretty pricey. There are also a few reviews of the ($200) M200s on Newegg where the reviewers were unable to contact the Swans to replace a defective product.

    I wasn't even able to find acculine's website, just the audio insider's product page. I would definitely not feel comfortable spending that kind of money on a company that I can't even find contact info for. Perhaps you should stick to some less eccentric product choices in the future.
  • Pirks - Tuesday, August 7, 2007 - link

    From the article:

    "Unfortunately, we were hoping to receive the Toshiba SD-H903A HD-DVD writer to compare directly to the new low cost Pioneer BDC-S02BK Blu-ray writer but our sample has been delayed."

    Pioneer BDC-S02BK is NOT a Blu-ray writer. It is a DVD writer that can READ Blu-ray discs. It can NOT write to them. Please fix the article.
  • yyrkoon - Tuesday, August 7, 2007 - link

    I am not sure it makes sense to test the ABIT NF-M2 nView. I have been going on from time to time about it, I own it, and I really like the board, but ABIT discontinued it sometime ago. I personally would like to see your results, but owning one, I already know where it stands stability wise (second to none ring a bell ?).

    Anyhow, it is probably too late, but perhaps one of the replacements would be better suited ? Granted, the replacements all seem to have slightly less features, and I have no idea how stable they are . . .
  • 8steve8 - Tuesday, August 7, 2007 - link

    we are curious about onboard video performance, what about system performance
    (non-games) while using onboard video... does it suffer?(since memory and memory bandwidth is shared)
    please please dont bother talking about same-chipset performance differences of boards if its close...

    the last thing anyone wants anymore is 20 pages of gamming benchmarks comparing 15 boards all using the same chipsets... we all know the performance is basically identical,, the only thing we are concerned between boards of the same chipset is reliability/stability , maybe overclocking and features.. like does it have DHCP-DVI. or like does it use a cheap via firewire chip, or a nice Ti firewire chip... what about networking controller.. is it pci or pcie...onboard sound quality? optical output?..
    raid... just 1/0 or does it do raid 5...

    what about data corruption... some earlier nforce chipsets and earlier via chipsets caused data corruption with cirtain drivers...remember early via chipsets not properly implimenting pci to intel's spec.. so lots of pci cards had issues, including sound and raid controllers which back then ran on pci.... that is devistating... i have an old nforce4 ultra AMD board which consistantly corrupts data on harddrives...i would gladly take 10% less performance if i know the board will operate properly.


    the problem is these issues dont really become well known until months after the product is out... long after we bought it...



    i belive i can trust intel southbridges, and i think the new nvidia 430 and newer sata controllers are trustable, but can this can be confirmed?

    do all new boards have solid state capacitors? will they? should they?

    the intel board probably looks the best of the bunch... the g33TL
    has DHCP-DVI with onboard video capable of warcraft3@1600x1200@30fps (i know cause my g965 can)
    has Intel Gigabit networking
    has an ich9r southbridge w/6sata.
    has a bios which properly does sleep/standby etc... ?
    has audio with optical output.

    people might say intel boards are picky with ram... but thats cause they buy crappy ram... like corsair and kingston hyperX .. DDR2-800 as defined by jedec uses 1.8V... crappy ram requires more to opperate... and if u look at the "gamer" ram.. it all needs like 2.1 volts.. its utter crap... thast why intel boards dont work with that ram.

    ive never heard of an issue with intel boards and ram that meets jedec spec...

    but of course they cant overclock... so thats a big downer for some.. (but definately not all)




    some in the industry are calling for mainstream adoption of ECC memory.

    some things of note... you can use unbuffered ecc ram with an amd system / server on the cheap..
    athlon x2's memory controller has suppored ecc for a long time... maybe since the origional x86-64 cpu.

    you cannot do that with mainstream intel chipsets.... i dont think u can do it with any intel uatx board.
    but the x38 and 975x might do ecc, im not sure.
  • nsparadox - Tuesday, August 7, 2007 - link

    I understand that you're excited to cover a lot of material. Keep in mind that many of your readers will, in the end, scan maybe the first paragraph of the introduction, check out their favorite benchmarks or concerns (noise, heat, etc)., and then move straight to the conclusion.

    Rather than scientifically test every single aspect of a "platform", maybe it's best to play with some of these concepts and make a few generalizations based on your experience. That should leave you with ample time and focus to hone in on the issues that you think users care about the most.

    Or, focus on a single platform and do your broad but shallow scan (choose between building the best HTPC, LAN box for gaming, quiet computer for gaming, quiet computer for productivity, but don't do all of them). Go ahead and write multiple articles. I think there's plenty you can write about each platform, especially if you focus on price/performance tradeoffs.

    The beauty of the DIY desktop PC is that everything is componentized. Take advantage of it with your reviews!
  • Frumious1 - Tuesday, August 7, 2007 - link

    When readers skip a lot of the material, that's their own choice. I certainly wouldn't want to purchase a motherboard without a decent amount of information on how well the BIOS and other features work - especially if I'm looking at a uATX board with IGP. Let Gary get all the articles done and then see how it all comes together. I'm not sure how he's going to cover all the additional content, but I won't judge until it's out there. :)
  • mostlyprudent - Tuesday, August 7, 2007 - link

    I find myself skimming and skipping when there is a drawn out series of reviews that are essentially the same (i.e. the cooler and now the PSU reviews here). Once I read the methodology article for the PSU reviews, I read the first review or two in its entirety, but now I skim the first page or tow, check the benchmark graphs/tables and read the conclusion.

    After reading this article, I get the impression that we are not simply going to get a string of motherboard reviews, but a series of unique articels that examine groups of MBs by chipset and other aspects of the HTPC system (cases, storage, displays, etc.). If that's the case, I personally will enjoy a full detailed read of each article
  • yyrkoon - Tuesday, August 7, 2007 - link

    Well you see . . . I often take reviews from *any* review site with a grain of salt anyhow (personally). There are many reasons why, but one of the major reasons is that most reviewers only test a single board. I like to read user reviews from sites like newegg to get a broader 'idea' of how the board works in use, and potential problems that may crop up. Granted, you need to weed out the 'weenies' and their reviews to get at the heart of the matter. This is one factor why I choose ABIT boards, they have a very active forum, and if there are problems with a board, you can bet it will be plastered all over ABITs forums. That, and often times you can get your problem solved very quickly there, and I have seen Anandtech staff there helping ABIT make their boards the best they can be. However, I really do wish ABIT would do away with their current replacement policy, but I guess it is to be expected (replacing bad parts with remanufactuered/recertified parts, would be nice to get a new part, for a new part). Thankfully, I have rarely had the need to replace any motherboard from ABIT.
  • Alyx - Tuesday, August 7, 2007 - link

    I must agree, it is their choice. Personally I skip most articles too, I read the first and last pages and maybe glance at charts. Its mostly just to keep me informed.

    If I'm buying though I read every word. Devil's in the details.
  • ATWindsor - Tuesday, August 7, 2007 - link

    "While performance is important, does a few tenths of second or an additional two frames per second in a benchmark really mean that much when you cannot get a USB port working due to a crappy BIOS release or your system does not properly recover from S3 sleep state when you are set to record the last episode of the Sopranos? "

    I couldn't agreee more, the main thing is that the board works, miniscule performance-differnces comes far behind in importance.

    AtW
  • Mazen - Tuesday, August 7, 2007 - link

    The timing of this article couldn't be better. I really look forward to see what you guys have to say. Question is, how long do we have to wait before we can read it (yes, impatient!). I'll contribute coffee!
  • JarredWalton - Tuesday, August 7, 2007 - link

    Word on the street is Gary will have the first part posted within the next week. Beyond that... guess we'll see.
  • Mazen - Thursday, August 9, 2007 - link

    Woooo Hoooo! Can hardly wait for next week
  • Alyx - Tuesday, August 7, 2007 - link

    Where in the world did you find these? I see newegg has the lower end Swan stuff but I couldn't seem to find any retailers that sold these speakers.

    Must be to new?
  • Alyx - Tuesday, August 7, 2007 - link

    nvm. Looks like The Audio Insider is the only place to carry them that I can find. Didn't realize that they sold speakers (Based on the name I thought they did reviews).

    http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php?pr...">http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php?pr...
  • Bozo Galora - Tuesday, August 7, 2007 - link


    OMG!! Reviews that reflect actual "in use" reality??
    Reviews that dont fear to tread on alienating a manufacturer that ADVERTISES on AT??
    Articles where the reviewer is not terrified that the vendor will cut them off from free samples and insider info??
    No more hand selected or engineering sample salivating previews????
    Are you saying after 8 years of "we are sure the next bios release (due out in 2 days) will fix everything", you are finally breaking free???

    This is unprecedented.
    Who woulda thunk it.
    Will wonders never cease.

    It may even start a trend - ha
  • sprockkets - Tuesday, August 7, 2007 - link

    Do any of the tuner cards you tested allow you to record Xvid and mp3? My leadtek did but some other programs for other tuner cards didn't allow you to use the direct show codecs directly.

    Also, does vista in general not allow you to use the CDROM/AUX input on the sound card? I have a Foxconn nForce 4 board with onboard audio, and when using Vista on it, it decided I didn't need the cdrom audio input anymore, but kept all the others. I can't use the Leadtek tuner card because that is how it outputs audio. Thanks Microsoft!
  • sprockkets - Tuesday, August 7, 2007 - link

    For focusing on what matters in uATX boards. That and perhaps the vast majority of people are more focused on these items such as S3 standby as opposed to other features.

    Shame the abit NF-M2 nView is no longer going to be made since it is older tech.
  • Myrandex - Friday, August 10, 2007 - link

    I think its a shame that there aren't any more SLI capable mATX boards coming out. I have the EVGA Nforce4 SLI mATX board and absolutely love it. I didn't want onboard video, as I already had a 7800GT, and I wanted the option of adding a cheap 7800GT to it later as well if I wanted to (as well as I have a dedicated X-fi sound card and a PCie TV Tuner), so that board worked perfectly.
    Jason
  • The Boston Dangler - Tuesday, August 7, 2007 - link

    I built a micro box just last night. This was for my friend's parents (in their 60's). The box alone hit the $500 target. Everything else will be purchased in person. I hooked them up with XP MCE and remote, they purchased Office Sudent Edition, and all other software will be freebies. The box will be used for the usual suspects: email, internet, music, movies, and office stuff.

    ASUS M2NPV-VM
    (seems very complete, capable, easy to use, I like the MB header for reset, pwr etc.)
    3800+ HE
    2 GB decent, cheap DDR-800
    Seasonic 330W
    Coolermaster Centurion 541, forgot to buy fans DOH!
    ( I didn't like the way the stand-offs didn't support the forward edge of the MB, the tool-less drive bays are kinda PITA, why are the front panel plugs at the bottom?)
    Lite-On SATA DVD
    Samsung ??? HDD (love them)

    5 beans, not too shabby.
  • Darth Farter - Tuesday, August 7, 2007 - link

    heh, same thing here for my dad ordered from ZZF, 3800+, 2gb ddr2 800, Asus 690G, a 250gb WD, liteon sata dvdrw and mini case vostok w. psu from enermax ~$400.
  • mostlyprudent - Tuesday, August 7, 2007 - link

    WOW, impressive summary article. That was a lot of information and you conveyed logically and concisely. The sheer scope of material you plan to present over the next month is staggering, but VERY welcome.

    Do we really have to wait until September/October for the P35 roundup?
  • CZroe - Tuesday, August 7, 2007 - link

    I just hope you guys are aware that Mission Impossible III on Blu-Ray is MPEG2. Most BD movies are VC-1 or AVC video codecs while it's usually the older titles that end up with MPEG2 (due to immaturity of the mastering software). Most BD movies that are also released on HD-DVD are the exact same VC-1 encode on both discs, so this is an unfortunate selection for comparison.
  • Bjoern77 - Tuesday, August 7, 2007 - link

    "Oh, we almost forgot: we get to do this all over again with the P35 motherboards when we're done with the µATX segment."
    The time that review will show up the p35 will be outdated, concerning all that various components included in this review.

    But anyway, i'm looking forward to it.
  • CZroe - Tuesday, August 7, 2007 - link

    I just hope you guys are aware that Mission Impossible III on Blu-Ray is MPEG2. Most BD movies are VC-1 or AVC video codecs while it's usually the older titles that end up with MPEG2 (due to immaturity of the mastering software). Most BD movies that are also released on HD-DVD are the exact same VC-1 encode on both discs, so this is an unfortunate selection for comparison.
  • strikeback03 - Tuesday, August 7, 2007 - link

    300 was just released on both using VC-1 for each. Though of course that would mean more testing for the Anandtech crew.
  • Kensei - Tuesday, August 7, 2007 - link


    quote:

    Our upcoming series of µATX articles has traveled a road long (Ed: that's an understatement!).


    Not to be too pendantic, but did you mean "long road"?

    Also, while I have your attention Gary, what happened to those literary quotes you used to use at the beginning of article? I like them... not sure about others though.
  • Calin - Tuesday, August 7, 2007 - link

    I can hardly wait for the entire extravaganza
  • licuo - Tuesday, August 7, 2007 - link

    Word up! Really nice! Since i am moving to a new town but will keep going to LAN events this round up will come in handy when making my choices! Anandtech brings a lot of articles that I like to read. I guess i am reading your site since 10 years and i see a constant improvement (some other münich based site didnt improve). Keep it coming guys!

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